The New Dreaming Podcast

Walking Two Worlds: Glenn Johnston Shows How Procurement Creates Real Opportunity

• David Cook

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Thirty moves as a kid. A father who couldn’t safely say he was Aboriginal. And a career that accidentally began with “buying pens and pencils” before turning into a blueprint for Indigenous procurement and self-determination. We yarn with Glenn Johnston, Barramatta of the Dharug Nation, about what identity costs when survival demands silence and what it takes to rebuild connection when records and stories are missing. 

From there, Glenn gets practical about power. He breaks down why procurement matters, how a purchase order can scale an Aboriginal business and what policies like the Indigenous Procurement Policy and New South Wales Aboriginal Procurement Policy have unlocked for the blak economy. He also challenges the comfortable headlines: big dollar figures can still mean less than 1% of the Australian economy, while mob deserve representation that matches population and contribution. 

We go deep on “walking in two worlds” and the tension between culture strength and Western systems, especially hiring. Glenn shares real examples of changing interview processes into a yarn, reducing barriers like legacy criminal records and creating employment pathways that ripple through community. We also talk boardrooms, why Indigenous board representation is so low across corporate Australia and how leadership comes down to one test: are you creating value. 

If you care about First Nations leadership, Indigenous economic development, Aboriginal business growth and closing the gap through practical systems change, this one will stick with you.

Welcome And Quick Catch-Up

SPEAKER_01

Glenn, thank you so much, brother, for joining us on the podcast. It's uh a pleasure having you here. Thanks, Joe. Uh looking forward to it. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Now um let's start with how was your morning? Morning was beautiful. Um a nice sleep in, you know, uh a big hotel bed. Um and we got up, had a nice uh nice breakfast and made our way here to your your beautiful studio.

SPEAKER_01

And are you a eggs Benny type of guy?

SPEAKER_00

Or you No, no, I've I've got a uh my disclaimer is uh we're we're vegan, uh so no eggs, no animal product. Uh it's all plant-based. Um but yeah, just a light, just a bit of toast uh this morning and uh some coffee, and that was it.

SPEAKER_01

Perfect way to start. Yeah. And um we're gonna get into some stuff very shortly. Um we'll just start with name mob and and sort of where you're

Barramatta Roots And Family Records

SPEAKER_01

from.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So full name, Glenn Johnston. Um the mob is Barramatta of the Durig Nation, and Barramatta is our traditional name for Paramatter. Um so we decided uh quite a few years ago now to introduce our our traditional name. Um and I'm able to trace um six generations of our Aboriginal heritage back. Uh so around the Auburn Paramatta area. Um can't go beyond uh the sixth uh generation because records just do not exist. That's right. Um and as uh part of uh my uh discovery is that um there was a wealthy uh landowner uh by the name of Mitchell out there uh in the Auburn area, and uh he took it upon himself to uh take advantage of some of the Aboriginal girls, and uh there's offspring uh as a consequence of that. Uh but of course, uh yeah, you're talking the 1830s to eighteen fifties, that was not something they wanted to be known. Um, and so there was no records around that. So quite often uh the offspring uh got the name uh of Mitchell. Um so Mitchell was our heritage, and then it's uh moved over to to Johnston over the last couple of generations. Wow.

SPEAKER_01

I found that mid-80s before the mid-1800s. The records. Or there's just a first name, no last name. Yeah. And I can't go any further.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's yeah, it's so prevalent. Uh the there's so many stories uh around of that, and it's you know, it's that shared story. And then um as as dad was uh you know the original uh fellow there in in Parramatta at the time, which was um in the uh 1950s, um it was you know considered the the redneck uh area of Australia, the most racist, uh the most vilified uh sort of area.

Hiding Identity For Survival

SPEAKER_00

Um and dad being uh you know dark skinned and and dark curly haired, he identified as Spanish. Um and I I didn't really understand why that was until I got a a bit older, and it was around um self-preservation.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Um you yeah, in the 50s and sixties in Australia you you would not identify as Aboriginal. Um and it's sometimes difficult for for the younger generation to understand that today because they they never experienced that. And but I can understand uh that the self-preservation um mentality of of non-disclosure, non-identification. Yeah. Um and it it just made sense uh for them to do that uh back then. Um and what that did was was built a a mental wall of defence for dad. So he would he would never talk about you know his upbringing, his culture, his connections. Um until later in life uh I I could talk to him a little bit about it, but it was only um when he was charged up with a bit of alcohol, which used to be a concern because he he was alcoholic. Uh so the only way to to learn and to hear uh some of his his connections was through alcohol, which is a bit a bit disturbing, but on the other hand, if if I didn't have that, I I I would lose that connection at just one generation back. So I was determined to try to find out as much as I could, but still there's massive gaps and holes there. There's not a unfortunate line of continuity there you know I can trace. But like I say, I'm still on that journey, uh, as as many more bar. Um and it's amazing how about twelve months ago I was at a uh university function and um which is down near uh La Peruse in Sydney, and some of the uh the oldies were were talking to me and they they said, Oh, Johnston from Auburn. And I said, Oh yeah, around that area. They go, Oh, do you know so-and-so? And they were giving me names of people that had moved from that area down there, which are relations. So it's just yeah, it just goes on and on. It's it's it's a great uh thing when you can try to discover that, but it's hard. You know, as people get older, you know, unfortunately people, you know, die off and and and their stories and connections go with them.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. We're gonna keep going with that. Now, going back to those um those times where you were questioning dad about the identity, let's talk about those first 10, 15 years of your life, maybe um any core memories you have of growing up and and that identity.

Moving Constantly And Growing Up Fast

SPEAKER_00

It it didn't strike me until later in life, but we we moved more than thirty times in my early years. And uh and so dad was was uh yeah, you would coin the phrase restless, like he just didn't want to uh settle down. And uh as a kid you don't know any different. You think, oh, we we don't unpack boxes, we just move to a different house. And and it wasn't until later in life that um again I discovered you know things like yeah, dad wasn't registered uh to to vote. So he hated the system that much he didn't want to be connected to to that. And so I think it's part of his um yeah, mentality was just to keep on moving so they couldn't pin him down. So we moved all over Sydney, um, which was obviously disruptive, but again, as a kid you really don't know, you just sort of go with the flow. Uh it's yeah, it's mum and dad, it's you you just follow them. You know, you you you don't know any different. Um so I had a a a fairly stable schooling because we're always uh around the the metropolitan area of of Sydney. Um and so that was, I guess, one stability I had. So primary school, uh, and then into high school. Um but yeah, so that was disruptive in later life. When I look back on it, I realized that was not normal uh for for whatever normal is, but that certainly didn't appear unusual at the time.

SPEAKER_01

And there was there an age maybe in your teenage years where where some of those things, again, you said later life came up, but as a teenager with identity and maybe when you left school, um, what are some of the things that um eventually got you into leadership positions? How did that

School Path And Early Work Ethic

SPEAKER_01

come about?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, so I I I I mentioned high school and um again at the time I didn't understand, but um dad yeah, didn't have much of an education uh as a young Aboriginal person. Um In fact I never really found out the the year that he left, but it would have been in his early teenage years. Um but he was determined to make sure that I had a a good education. He understood the importance of that, uh, but not having experienced it himself. And so he created a a contract cleaning business and he picked up some contracts at some of the uh the big private schools in Sydney. And again, I I didn't know any different. But what happened was he was able to get me a uh a scholarship uh at uh Scott's College, which is one of the uh top-tier schools. And so I went there. Um he obviously couldn't afford the the full fees, so hence the the scholarship. So the um the school sergeant at the time and the uh the bursa or the uh uh finance director uh obviously looked kindly upon Dad and and and myself and and I was uh gifted that opportunity of of having that uh that private uh college education for the first four years, so up to year ten. At that time, so I I'm 15, 16, mum and dad, uh, because dad was the bloody you know the nomad, he couldn't hold down tight uh a permanent place, they ended up going up to uh Byron Bay. And Dad was a cellarman, so he used to work in uh pubs in in the cellars, uh tapping the the kegs for for the uh the beer. Anyway, so he got uh got the job up there in Byron Bay, and there was the expectation that I would follow them once I finished uh year ten. Um the German side, so my mother is German, uh her parents uh were or certainly her her father was highly educated uh over in Germany, so a um an engineer by profession, obviously interrupted by the uh Second World War, but he he uh assumed that role uh once they migrated to Australia in in 1956. He he said you you've got to finish high school. And again, I didn't know any different. Um I wasn't very uh academic in that sense. Um I liked the the school uh environment of you know the the just mucking around with mates and sport, uh and then you had to go to class, obviously, but the class was just there. Um but he was determined to say, you know, to get me to finish the uh final two years. They were living out at North Mead, which is uh just near Parramatta. Uh Scots College is in Bellevue Hill, and so I was travelling two hours each way uh to go to college, uh then doing sport after school, and it just became pretty hard. I I was happy to take the easy way out, and I said, Oh no, I'm gonna follow mum and dad up to Byron when I finish. Anyway, they said, no, no, come and live with us, and we'll just put you into a local high school, um, to obviously take that four or five hours of travel away. And so then I went to North Mead High for the final two years. And and then I thankfully never made that trip to to follow mum and dad. I I started out on my journey, you know, at essentially at a 16-year-old, living with my grandparents. Um, and then so I was doing that for the the final uh couple of years, got a job uh in year 12, um, opening up the local news agent for the owner. So here I am getting up at four o'clock in the morning, uh opening up the shop, sitting behind the counter, serving the three customers that came in on their way to work, yeah, with cigarettes and a paper or whatever. The owner had come in at 6 or 6:30. I'd sort of bid him a good day, and I'd go home, get get ready for school. And I went down to the local high school, which was about a couple hundred meter walk. Um, and so that was my my very early days, and I guess that kind of led to my my focus on on leadership, on being self-reliant, having to look after myself, um, getting a bit of taste for money. It was back then it was uh cash in hand. So it was uh yeah, back in the day I was I was getting a couple hundred bucks a week. Yeah. Um cash in hand, it was great, I was cashed up. Yeah um got a got a nice secondhand or a terrible secondhand car, but uh uh a car nonetheless uh that allowed me to have that uh that freedom and and mobility. Um and and then went from from that into uh the corporate world because after uh finishing year 12 I just didn't want to go to uni. I I had the taste for money, had that freedom, flexibility, um, so I was determined to find a uh job and and did that um in a company called John Fairfax and Sons as an office junior. Uh so really starting on the lowest lowest peg, um not knowing what I wanted to do other than just get a job, which I did, um, and it sort of rolled from there.

Discovering Procurement As Leverage

SPEAKER_01

And um if I were to say a few a few words, um procurement. Indigenous procurement.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Let's talk about that and leadership empowerment, it it's it's it's within you and it's become a part of you. But where did the mindset come for you to to be such a driving force behind that?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, I as I mentioned, uh I got that office junior role and yeah, didn't know what a what a big corporate was, um, but worked there for a couple of months, and then the uh the office manager said, Our purchasing office is going on long service leave. Can you cover his role? And I didn't even know what purchasing was, literally the the the word. And I said, What is that? And he goes, Oh, you just buy pens and pencils. You know, and I I thought, oh I could probably do that. Anyway, so I I took that role over as a as a purchasing officer and then I just progressed through different uh career progression uh and got bigger roles. But it was probably five or six years after I started I realized how powerful it was to give organizations or give company suppliers uh purchase orders. I was very much before that just transactional. You know, I need this, here's the purchase order, they give the goods and services. So I was very much in that transactional mode, but it wasn't until I sort of stepped out of that and realized just what that does. Um and then just through various uh circles and networks, indigenous entrepreneurs who were trying to start up businesses understood that I was indigenous, so there was that connection. Um and and they were asking me to help them, how do they grow their business? So I was starting very early on with these organizations coming to me, or suppliers coming to me, um, wanting guidance and and advice, so I was doing that. Um and it was that was the real you know, watershed moment when I was seeing these organizations expanding on the on the back of purchase orders and and contracts. And then a handful of years later, I um I met up with Michael McLeod, who was the other founder of Supply Nation. And

Supply Nation And The Black Economy

SPEAKER_00

as we were yarning uh about what he was trying to establish in Australia uh as developing the indigenous economy, I said, I'm actually doing this on my own, and I've been doing it for a number of years. And I said, I can see what you're trying to do, and that's on scale and and nationally. Uh so I said, I you know, I I want to be part of that as well. Uh I think I've got some uh learned uh skills. Uh and also I couldn't identify any other blackfellas that were in a similar situation to me of being a purchasing manager or procurement manager. Um so I was able to use my my corporate experience and bring that into the the indigenous economy as as um as an advisor on on how best to navigate what essentially is is the you know the Western world, uh the commerce world. And so, you know, pairing up with with Supply Nation, it made sense. I was very supportive of what they were doing. Um and then the Indigenous uh procurement policy was was formed in in the Commonwealth government, and that really was the the catalyst uh about 15 years ago for for the uh the commencement of of the real um black economy uh that we call it today.

SPEAKER_01

So uh a lot of businesses and and and black leadership um you've paved the way for that through what you organically were doing and then sort of formalized it and now it's a huge part of our growth across all sectors.

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah. It it is huge when you look at it as a as a single number. Yeah, there's tens of billions of dollars coming into the the black economy, but that really is uh a drop in the ocean. Um so whilst we like to look back and think, yeah, geez, we've come a long way and and we've created something great. When when I'm really critical of it, we we haven't. Um the the dollars spent are are way less than one percent of the Australian uh economy. We represent three percent of the economy, so we're not there yet. Um and if this has taken fifteen or twenty years to get to one percent, I'm hoping it's not going to take the equivalent time to get to three percent. We are on a absolute exponential growth. There's no doubt about that. Um, but there's still a uh a lot of work to do. To get that to a uh to equity. So what is representative of our three percent of population i into three percent of the the economy?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And how important is it to you spiritually, as a First Nations man, um, to empower mob and to have them in positions of of leadership and empowerment? Um is there something that may have happened in you know, as a young man? There's just a moment where you're like, no, I'm I'm changing this. You know?

SPEAKER_00

I I don't think I had an aha moment. Uh I didn't wake up one morning and go, uh, this is it. I think it it sort of almost crept up on me uh just through the the experience I had. But when I look back now, I can just realise of just how how solid and how important that is, of of not of not relying on on um social welfare. Um for all too long that's been uh the mantra of of different governments over time is just throw money at the problem, throw money at the blackfellas, that'll that'll fix the problem. And we know that doesn't work. You've got to take ownership over that. And I think I've just sort of progressed along the uh the path of realizing social welfare, not good, self-determination and and wealth creation is is the opportunity. But I also you know acknowledge that not every blackfellow wants to be a business owner. Um and it's it's bloody hard being a you know a business owner, there's no doubt about that. Um and I've I've got that lived experience as well. So for you know almost 25 years I uh run a security company um on a part-time basis while I was building my corporate career, uh hiring out uh guards to hotels and clubs and bodyguards. So I I know how hard it is. Um but I I also know that the alternative is to find uh career pathways for people, so to help them do that. So that's another area that I'm I'm involved in as well. Creating um solid employment pathways.

Walking In Two Worlds At Work

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. If I were to say a little phrase to you, um walking both worlds. Yeah. What does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, it's it's a it's a phrase I I use and I I teach um uh as well. So walking in two worlds is is a constant. And it's uh there is a uh an academic uh research paper on that, uh which I use as the foundation now, done by um Whitefellow researchers, but they have proven that there there is a reality to these two worlds, and it it's only something that's come about in the last uh eight to ten years that that's often the the foundation for a lot of the tension and a lot of the the the unknown um realization of of black fellows like why why are we different? What's doing this? And it's that inherent uh culture strength that we have, so that's our our world, and then there's the the Western modern world. And so there's often tension there, and and that's what we say uh the walking into worlds framework is you've got to be aware of of the two worlds and how do you navigate successfully through both of them. So don't downplay the your culture because that is a real strength.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

But also understand that we're in a a modern Western world that if uh you you want to be part of, you've got to be part of. You can't sort of just jump in and jump out. You it's there as a constant.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

The best example of of that is uh employment practices. So uh in the public service, uh, for instance, there's a very structured way of employing people. You you fill in an application form, uh, if you pass that process, you then go to a panel interview. There's often four or five behaviour type uh questions that are asked, and you're assessed on that. There's there's a living example of how bad that is. A lot of blackfellas don't um respond well to those interviews. So they're seen as not worthy, so they don't get the jobs. When I was at uh Transport for New South Wales uh a few years ago. There was a a very switched-on executive director who was approached and we said, You're you're culling a lot of these blackfellas based on these interview processes. Why don't we ch try and change that and have the executive director talk to these people and we say, Yeah, Yarn, just have a one-on-one conversation with these people. Find out what they've done over the last ten years, not look at the structured uh questions. And um, it was quite often centered around uh you for instance, you can't drive a train if you've got a criminal record. Well, there's a lot of black fellas that have criminal records that are often petty, but they unfortunately carry those for for most of their life. And they may have done nothing wrong or illegal in 10, 15 years and been a real contributor to their community and their family, but because they've got this legacy hanging around, they they they get discarded at the uh the first hurdle. So we challenged the system. The executive director for HR was having these yarns, and she was realizing that an 18, 19-year-old who gets a bit of a criminal record for for fairly petty crimes, not paying fines and and so on, you know, driving unlicensed or whatever, um, she realized that wasn't character building for them. Beyond that, uh they've actually, you know, stellar community people. And so she was getting them across the line of this hurdle, and they were becoming train drivers. And that created a um uh the ripple effect through community. Community were then hearing about transport and going, actually, they're not that bad. Yeah, uncles now got a drop uh driving trains, I might try that. So we increased the representation of Aboriginal people in in transport over a couple of years. It was a great example of how you can challenge the the concept of the two worlds, how do you find uh yeah, the middle ground for for success?

Boardrooms And Changing The System

SPEAKER_01

And you sit on a number of boards, you've probably been in more more important meetings and and board meetings and than you can count. What are some of the hurdles, obstacles that maybe mob create for themselves, but in that political sense, in that room and those discussions, some of the things that they're not seeing the the cultural side of that? What are you having to navigate there and some of the challenges?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I mean th that's a multi-layered uh c question and and scenario. I I think it comes down to confidence and and presence. I'm I'm one to to be courteous and you know, I'll I'll knock on doors politely to try to get a response, and after a while then I'll I will kick the door in if I have to. But that's built on the back of many years of of confidence building. I think for young mob coming into that uh scenario, you've you've got to understand what our our strength of of community is, or culture, and that's centered around community and family. Um, and build on the on the back of that. That's one of our real strengths, is that most of what we do is for for others. The representation on boards is is a little bit different because you're you're managing an organization or leading an organization through an executive. So it's different to being an executive at the front line managing uh or leading an organization. So you've got to understand when you can lean into the executive and when you've got to be able to lean out and let the executives uh run their uh their programs there. But really bringing the you know the the strength of of our culture through because it's been downplayed for so many generations that you know we weren't valuable, we weren't worthy um of of having those those places, it's about changing that that discourse, that negative discourse, and showing that we are capable um when when given those opportunities. But my reason for being on uh boards now is because again a handful of years ago I realized apart from Indigenous organizations, uh there's not many uh representatives of mob on non-Indigenous boards. And if I look at the uh the ASX 300, uh there's approximately 1,800 uh board seats there, on average nine uh seats per organisation. There's four seats that are taken by mob. So that's four out of eighteen hundred. I I don't know about you, David, but the the maths is pretty low on on that as a representation.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so part of my uh my newfound purpose is to create opportunities to get more black fellows on those those tables because that's where some of the big decisions are made uh through corporate uh Australia. And whilst governments can do a lot, and they're often the the leaders on on initiatives, it's the corporate world that then take that to the next level because it's a far bigger uh economy.

SPEAKER_01

And in your large career span so far, what are some of the highlights, whether it be some uh something in the community or something you've got across the line that you had to fight really hard for?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's it's the creation of uh Aboriginal procurement policy. Um in New South Wales uh government I I helped uh set that up. Um so whilst we had the the Commonwealth Government, the IPP, about five or six years as a preceding uh policy, that was great uh for for what it was, and that really was the uh the first phase or first wave of of the black economy. But yeah, uh getting the the New South Wales uh state APP uh uh established and and up and running was was huge because New South Wales is uh like a third of the Australian economy. So what New South Wales does can really affect the overall economy. So that was massive. And so then New South Wales launched their uh APP, and then pretty much every other state and territory followed as well. So I saw that as the the next stage or next wave of um of boosting the indigenous economy.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. And some of the challenges doesn't have to be with the work. It could be, let's just say, later in life you were talking about identity and mob and and tracing lineage and did any of that stuff bleed into some of the work you were doing? Was there an emotional toll at one stage that might have uh you know changed the way you saw things?

Trauma, Purpose, And Shared Histories

SPEAKER_00

I I think as you as I get older, I I get more appreciation of um of of what our ancestors went through. Um and obviously I didn't have a connection much beyond uh dad, um, but I can see through my story and the re the other stories that I I hear through through my journey um of just how how devastating you know the the policies of the governments at the time were.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I think um when we hear about you know the White Australia policy, most people think that was like a flash in the pan. It was just around for a few years and that was over 70 years. So there's three or four generations that that had effect. And of course we're we're still living with uh intergenerational trauma. Uh, and that's you know, scientifically been proven that that is a real thing. It's not a made-up concept. Uh so as I get older I I realise that there was a lot of damage done. Um and yeah, I guess I'm I'm at the position now where I can help you know change some of those outcomes. But also a um uh another reflection point is that the uh colonists um playbook. I've I've had experience of that in uh in Maori culture, they they experience the same sort of thing. Uh and then even further over into uh North America with the uh Native Americans um have had a bit to do with uh some of the tribes there and and they had exactly the same. Um you can change the names and the places, but the the outcomes are the same.

unknown

Yeah.

Family, NAIDOC, And Culture At Home

SPEAKER_01

Outside of all this work, what does Glenn like to do for fun? Downtime relaxation?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's uh it's a great question. Um we're fortunate that uh yeah, the wife and I have uh yeah, two beautiful adult daughters now. And uh one of those uh daughters has uh gifted us with uh three beautiful granddaughters, uh so they're four, two, and less than one uh year old. So yeah, we love uh you know spending time with with them. Um it's a real shift from parenthood to grandparenthood. You know, we we say we love our our children dearly, but geez, we love our grandchildren more. It's uh it's a different world uh because I think as a parent you you're just enmeshed 24-7 in the the chaos, the noise, uh, the ambiguity, the confusion, and and the mess. Um whereas as grandparents you you've you know, I call this FIFO, you know, fly in, fly out. And it's uh it's a beautiful concept where you can just love them dearly for a period of time and then hand them back. But in that period you have, you're not caught up in the the the the noise. There's a lot more clarity. And I think um you know Karen, my wife uh and I have have shared that where you you see characteristics of our our daughters in our granddaughters, but it's embellished because you you're able to focus in on that because you're not confounded by all of the other noise and and movement that's going on. So it's much more yeah, much more almost microscopic. You get that in look, uh that look into their characteristic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's great. I've never heard uh someone say that, but it makes so much sense. When you're a parent, you just have hair, you're pulling it out, and yeah. There's work commitments and lack of sleep. But you know, um and what's the best part about you know your journey with culture and now as the the girls grow, being able to yarn them that story.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and and that is really uh something we we treasure. Uh a few weeks a bit ago we had yeah, the um NADOC event. Um so they live on the uh the Central Coast, so it's a it's about an hour's drive from where we are. Uh so we went up to the Central Coast and had a NADOC event with them and and just have them there, yeah, sitting on our laps, you know, with the uh the smoking ceremony and watching the dances, and and really they're at that age now, or sort of the the four-year-old is now looking at the young kids dancing and and thinking, she could do that. I uh and I want to do that. And so so we're encouraging um her mother to to do that. Um but not forcing it either. We want it to be owned by them and let them progress into it, and I think that's a real uh uh a real beautiful sort of opportunity to talk about our culture. Um I I remember a couple of years ago we had our um oldest granddaughter with us, and uh Karen was changing uh nappies on on our bed and I got the clapsticks and started clapping, and uh the the granddaughter just went, whoa, and and really focused on that. And uh sometimes changing nappies on on babies can be a bit bit hard, you know, they're moving around, and and she just chilled right out. And so Karen said, Oh yeah, keep on doing it, and then gave gave her the uh the clapsticks, and she was clapping away, didn't know she was getting dressed and nappy changed and everything. It was it was a a real beautiful moment. And so we've introduced that and we continue that now with the the second one when when she stays with us. Um and so that's a a nice introduction to to part of our culture as well.

SPEAKER_01

Such a beautiful sound. Oh yeah, just resonates, something resonates.

SPEAKER_00

It it goes through you. Yeah. It it it yes, of course you hear it, but you feel it. Yeah. Uh and the dig is is a great example of that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Professor Role And The Next Plan

SPEAKER_01

Now um the next few years. I'm I'm guessing your vision, your your ambition, not ambition, um the wrong word, your your mission, rather. Uh it's evolving. It it's always about empowerment and leadership.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So um what's the next three to five years look like in terms of providing value to to people like myself, who's a black fellow business owner who kind of to be honest, when I was reading them value, I was like, holy shit, like this guy's I'm talking to a professor right now, is that correct? Yeah. Can we talk about the professor and then the next three to five years?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, sure. Um so the professorship came through the the Uni of New South Wales, so the Australian Graduate School of Management, AGSM, which is one of the uh top business schools in uh Southeast Asia. I think we're we're ranked about 13 or 14th uh globally as a business school, so that's pretty powerful. And so I I I did a program through them about eight or nine years ago as a as an uh Aboriginal leadership program, and I liked it so much, and they obviously liked me so much, they said, we want you to be part of our faculty, help us create these programs uh and deliver them going forward. And I said, Oh yeah, I've never done that, so I'm happy to try something new. And uh and I could see the opportunity to uh to share my learning uh with with Mob coming through. And so that evolved. Um I've been doing that program uh with them, so MBA programs, uh executive leadership programs, short courses uh for a few years now, and then uh yeah, got appointed as a adjunct professor uh about a year and a half ago, which was um interesting because uh as I said earlier, uh I wasn't really academic at school. Um so it's it's not ironic, but it just shows, I guess, how people mature over time. And now I'm uh an advocate for lifelong learning. Um and so I think if if giving me that title shows uh as a role model to someone that uh here's you know here's Glenn, who I didn't drop out of school, but I didn't finish it uh with great honours, but I finished it. Um but I've progressed, and if someone can see that sort of journey, they they may aspire to that. So that's a nice role model to have. So I'll continue doing that, and and that's expanding now. We're getting more uh mob coming through who who want uh the training, which is music to my ears. You know, I I want that bigger audience because there's a gaping hole in our talent pipeline. So we've got to build that that talent and and that pipeline so that they're able to step up to some of these big roles when when the opportunity presents, or create the opportunity uh as well. So that'll go on, uh that'll continue. Uh the other area is you know still focusing on the on the black economy because you know self-determination is is at the heart of everything I do. Um and having wealth gives you choices on on life. It's not just about you know the the colour of the new Audi you you may buy, but it it helps people build things that are important like houses to live in, different health choices because they're things that are lagging. So yeah, we talk about closing the gap. Uh I I'm sick and tired of the talk uh around that. It's been going on for yeah nearly 20 years now. And we're not closing some of the important gaps. But I I believe truly that if we create our own economy and our own self-determination, some of those other gaps will will close over time. Hopefully, not over a long period of time, we can uh shorten that. But that's really yeah, for the next handful of years. Talked about the you know the importance of board work. Um again, a lot of mob is sort of emerging, coming into the uh corporate world, don't understand the the structures, they just think they've got to get a job. Yes, they do. But what's sitting over that and the structures around that? And it's about challenging those age-old sort of structures by getting a voice at the table. Uh and until we're yeah, well represented at those tables, our our voice is not being truly heard. So that's that's part of that mission.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Lifelong learning. Love that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Is there anyone that um you listen to, absorb uh podcast, or I love podcasts, clearly, that's why sort of one evolved. Yeah. Was there anyone that you sort of just listen to, whether it could be a podcast about fishing, you know, someone that you sort of like, hey, I just I like what this person's about. I like their messaging.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's probably not not one that I would put a finger on. But you you asked uh before about um you know how how do I you know get downtime and and and relax. Obviously spending time with with grand grandkids is part of that.

Humor As Healing And Self-Care

SPEAKER_00

But the other side is is about the uh the the mental um relaxation. Um so we we've recently uh discovered yoga um as as part of that self-care. Um but what I've realized also throughout my my life is is a reliance on on comedy or or humor. Um and so any any sort of podcasts, particularly movies that have a humorous uh slant to it, um I I tend to navigate to. Um but in in um my my teachings at uh at uni, I talk to Mob about the the importance of humour. We're often we categorize ourselves as as being funny, but we don't know why. And I say that it's part of our healing. We use humor as healing. Um and when I talk about that, a lot of them go, oh, you're you're right. It's very self-deprecating kind of humor. But that's at the centre, you get mobbed together and you hear laughter, it's it's almost goes without saying.

SPEAKER_01

You hear it from a while away, don't you? You do, right? You hear mob.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there's that just that mucking around, that that laughter. And I've come to that realisation that I think it's part of our our healing is that we use that as as medication.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh and it's great medication to to use.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's free, doesn't harm you. That's right. It's readily available.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So um so I tell people to you know to look at l lighter side of life. Yeah, there's some serious shit going on. We we get that. And people need to work through that at their own pace and and and their own resources where they they need to. But have that that levity, that comedy relief there as a backstop. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. Because in in the little creative space, usually when there's a dramatic scene, you make people laugh before it breaks them down, opens them up to then have nice, meaningful conversations about something else. You're breaking the ice, you're healing, you're sharing stories. And I like medicine. I'm gonna I'm gonna use that now if that's okay. Please do. That's a really good one. And um can you share a little bit of um insight onto your trip here in Miami and in Brisbane?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And what you've come down for and some some news

Awards Night And No Bullshit Leadership

SPEAKER_01

there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, sure. So um there's a global peak body for procurement and supply chain professionals. Sounds a bit naf, but it's um it's called SIPS, so Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply. A UK-centred or founded organization. That's one of the oldest uh professional bodies in the world, um, which is nice. Uh, it's over 90 years old. Um and and they, if you like, have um representation uh across government and industry for the professionalism of procurement. And in Australia, there's about uh seven or eight thousand uh members uh of that organisation. And each year we get together, have a conference and then a gala awards um ceremony. Um and I was uh fortunate enough uh for my uh day job uh procurement team to be uh nominated as uh the uh procurement team of the year. So we got the finalist, and in my uh humble ways, yeah, I I never think those things uh eventuated and uh you you end up as a as a winner. Uh but we were fortunate enough last night to get uh the the gong for the uh the the best or procurement procurement team of the year large organization is the official title. Uh and that was nice. I had a uh a couple of the team with me uh up on stage. Uh so as a leader, it's it's nice uh to get that acknowledgement. Um but I I'm not a leader without the teams you know working uh around me. Um and so it was nice to have them on on stage uh as well to receive. Some of that accolade.

SPEAKER_01

Congratulations. Yeah, thank you. You earn that breakfast. And that sleep in.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And um leadership. There's so many different ways to lead. What does leadership mean to you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if you talk about uh my learnings of of recent, uh there's a there's a podcast and a book by an Australian uh fellow. It's called No Bullshit Leadership. Um and so I've been getting into that lately, and and that's uh a bit of a revelation. The the most important thing for a leader is to create value. And I'll I'll just let those words resonate with you. Leaders often don't think about that. Um, but then what does value mean? Um so of course, in the uh the shareholder world, it's about creating value for shareholders, right? Yeah, if that's your your area. But there's also customers, there's employees, yeah, there's other various stakeholders. Even at community level, there's there's stakeholders involved, and it's about creating value. So as a leader, if you're not creating value, then you're not doing leadership. And other elements of leadership are cutting through uh as his name uh David Martin says, is is about cutting through the bullshit. It's about getting rid of ambiguity or or managing change and ambiguity because that's ever-present. And if that's in the way of your teams, they will focus on on that and not do the job they're supposed to do that they're you know they're um they're accountable for. And so that's part of leadership is to break down that ambiguity so the teams don't get caught up in in that noise. Um and and manage change, communicate that uh with teams. Be supportive of teams, but understand that as a leader you're responsible for for the outcome of the teams. The teams are accountable. Uh quite often um leaders step in and go, I can do that. And so they take over that role of that person because the person's not delivering. They need to force that back onto the person that that person is accountable for their output and allow them to do that. So, yeah, so leadership is is complicated. It's it's one of the hardest roles to do. Um and there's not many people that do it well. Um I I stumble and fall every now and then as well, and so I have to self-check. Um, but that's that's part of of learning and growth.

Music, Films, And What Shapes Us

SPEAKER_01

I've got some off questions. Yeah. Random questions. What's the music you like listening to? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yeah, man, it's it's a real eclectic I I guess um popular Australian bands like In Excess, Midnight Oil really resonate. When I look at my um Spotify uh list over the years, each year we get that annual playlist. Yeah. Um Rolling Stones comes out as as uh often my my most played band. Um so that sort of genre, I guess 80s, 90s rock music.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I guess you know, y music and and and content we consume and and films and stuff, you know, ha has a big you know, role in in those formative years. And it's 41, so I I remember that music, I remember hearing it, the aunties playing it. And um it's very determined, strong music. And films. Any particular film, this is a hard question, like to be top of films, but yeah. I I'm just genuinely curious because I I love to sort of get a sense of impactful films that may have changed people's perception or open them up to a new way of thinking.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I I have two um standouts and uh and Karen always goes, Oh not again, when when they get played. And it's really more about the actor. Uh so Tom Hanks is my probably my favorite actor.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Um Jack Black from a comedy point of view is my second favourite, but uh Tom Hanks movie. So you've got the Green Mile and uh Forrest Gump uh would be uh my two standouts. They are on uh loop loop play. Whenever they're they're on uh uh at home on the on free to wear, they they get uh front and center.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely love those films. Yeah. Shaw Shank Redemption is another one of my favourites. Uh I'm glad you said um Green Mile, because that that's a very powerful film.

SPEAKER_00

It it really is. It's about you know the uh you know the the the black fella there uh is uh because of his colour and because he's not uh literate enough, uh he gets accused and charge of a horrendous uh murder, rape and murder of of the uh the girls. Um so yeah, that that's really powerful. And also the the non-natural, you know, that he's he's got that spirit in him where which is the the the moths, you know, he transfers that and he gives that for good, but also for bad. Um yeah, to the uh governor's wife, she has brain cancer, so he he fixes her uh and then he he makes one of the um the the prison guards turns him insane. Uh so that that's incredibly powerful.

SPEAKER_01

And it was magical. You were watching it as a child and beautiful cinematography, the the the acting, but then there was that magical element to it. And um this is just for a random day, but there's an incredible uh behind the scenes documentary of the Green Mile on YouTube. And they go in and they're talking to all the actors, and he's talking about talking with Tom, helping him with his scenes because he was a relatively new actor. So again, that could be something that could be in repeat because it's just as incredible as the um the film. But just a little heads up. Yeah, thank you.

Final Advice And Where To Connect

SPEAKER_01

And um in terms of your stay here in Brisbane, yeah. How often do you travel interstate with your work? And you know, you talked about when you were teaching uh some of the the messaging, but um I I guess nationally, uh are you you talking at conferences, are you are you doing things like that?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Ross Powell Yeah, so I I get asked to to keynote uh at at some conferences. Um but other other work mostly the board work takes me interstate. Um so I do get around there on some advisory boards that are based out of home state, um, so get to to travel to there as well. So not a not a frequent flyer, but yeah, I'd I'd certainly cover some miles.

SPEAKER_01

And for people out there that that may want to sort of follow what you're doing, um, you know, maybe LinkedIn, is there a place people can can follow and check out what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00

Aaron Powell Yeah. So I I think in this day and age, uh there's not many uh business uh type people that don't have a profile on LinkedIn. I think it's important. It is social media at the end of the day. Um so I I do occasionally uh you know get checked on that by people, um rightly or wrongly, mostly wrongly. Um but yeah, I'm I'm on there so they can find uh Glenn Johnson. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

And um I sort of want to finish with a little bit of a advice. Just in general, for mob looking for their identity, yeah. Maybe feeling stuck, feeling disempowered. What's a a piece of advice that you'd give to someone out there that's gonna watch this?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's what I've found is that whilst our some of our journeys are are similar, they're not the same. The individual has to take uh account over their own own journey. So try and discover who they are, what they are. But more importantly, find purpose. Yeah, find the why. Um what's their reason for being on on Earth? Um and when you get that, you you that sort of sh shapes the the the journey of of the future life. Um if you can satisfy that that purpose, then I think that you're you're on a long way uh going towards success.

SPEAKER_01

And then providing value.

SPEAKER_00

If you get into that opportunity, yeah, you've got to you know create the value and yeah, deliver the value because that's what other people look towards leadership for.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I really appreciate your time. I've actually feel quite empowered listening to you talk. Um You know, next time you're in Brisbane, if it's six months, eight months, let's do a follow-up. Yeah, let's talk about things, let's um let's get some toast and some vegan options here and and let's have a good yarn. And you know, I'd love to sort of um when I'm down south as well, uh come and maybe sit in if you can sneak me into a lecture or something if that could be accommodation. We'd love to just be amongst uh what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00

Um, uh you're more than welcome, mate. And uh I I didn't say earlier, but um some of the teachings we do is we we we discard the Western world of of teaching, which is often sitting at tables, desks and and chairs. Uh we do it in a yarning circle, and then we have the we turn the yarning circle into a learning circle. We actually don't change the shape, it's just the the mindset. It's like, okay, now we're stop yarning, we're now learning. And it's um it's incredibly powerful. And the feedback we get from the participants is it's mind blowing. They're saying, why aren't we doing this everywhere as a way of learning? And this is part of our you know, the two worlds, bringing our world of of learning into the modern world, and it's really powerful. So I'd love for you to to sit through one of those.

SPEAKER_01

No, absolutely. Brother, thank you again. Pleasure. And um, we'll chat soon.

SPEAKER_00

Good on you. Thanks, mate.